Gay is not 'unpopular'

I understand the practical reasons for keeping the current system in place for now, and I agree that we should not make the user experience worse while a better solution is being built. That said, phrasing like “who wants to sit beside who” can come across as insensitive because it frames identity as a personal preference rather than something that deserves respect.

I want to see this conversation about categorization and inclusivity continue as changes are made, and I hope it includes everyone, gay, trans, bi, straight, and any other identities. The goal is not to block anyone from content but to make the way content is grouped feel fair and respectful to all users.

I don’t disagree in general I was trying to demonstrate how I saw the semantics.

On a side note, “being gay is a choice” is a stupid argument. If I chose Pepsi over coke does that mean you can stone me?

Homophobes make such fuckass arguments.

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Given the focus of this community in particular with our subject matter being VERY adult in nature, the only people that should theoretically be on the site are 18+.

So i generally just assume everyone’s an adult and try to treat then as such cause if they’re not, they really shouldn’t be here.

Imo a lot of this shit is probably more of an optics issue than anyone actually meaning to be insensitive or offensive.

Unpopular is a bad descriptor with a negative connotation. Instead of unpopular, niche would probably be a better descriptor.

As for the grouping, Prob have the taboo ones(the ones more likely to get us in trouble) as their own group.

From my personal experience people will always perceive neutrality as negative. Because something or someone not being positive or happy automatically means negative or unhappy for a lot of people. Being a neutral matter-of-fact person can be very difficult at times.

About the grouping it with other things. Well, ultimately the grouping is neutral and doesn’t mean those things have any kind of connection. They are “not popular” therefore they are “unpopular”. In the end judging groupings emotionally or on “perceived perception” would just mean you can’t make any groups at all, because all of them are different, not necessarily connected in any other way besides the meaning of the tag and some might not like some things in them while they like others.

I’m not arguing either way. For me personally I don’t care if the “gay” tag is in that category or not. I come across gay posts all the time and just ignore them.

I’d say name it whatever describes the purpose of the group best, no matter how anyone feels about it. But people have already said it’s not about the name, it’s about what other tags are in the group. And in all likelihood someone could get offended over “gay” being called a “niche”. So ultimately it wouldn’t change anything.

Unfortunately that’s an emotional matter, and there’s no way to argue against how someone feels. :man_shrugging:

The topic title says different. " Gay is not ‘unpopular’ "

Just wanted to make note in this thread, due to it’s proximity in the sensitivity of the topic. Avoid re-iterating ideas that were already discussed (unless you have new input for the proposed solution).

Gay is typically defined as adult men who are sexually and emotionally attracted to other adult men. It is about 2% of the population in the USA and varies a lot across the world (though it never gets a double digit percentage in any country). So yeah, you’re going to see a bias in terms of the sheer number of people who are straight.

This just means that the great majority of the content will be released because it appeals to the majority of people. This isn’t some weird conspiracy or anything. It’s pure numbers

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“Why doesn’t animated-beastiality, the largest of the tags, simply eat the rest of the tags?”

Let me start by stating that I agree with the overall sentiment in the OP and understand the irritation that comes with how things were especially before the correction of the tag being muted by default (good reaction time after discovery btw :clap:).


Ubiquitous Imprecision and Downsides of Over-Precision

The way I see it, the issue is prevalent on pretty much all porn sites. And what leads to misunderstandings, is that everyone makes up the categories as they go and there is no real consensus or logical continuity to what they apply to.

And everyone makes simplifications because, if we were to do it correctly, the granularity necessary (think gender, body parts, group makeup, interactions between actors, the sexual orientation of the actors etc.) is so high, it’s not just admins and mods, but also the creators and users who would have more work to do. And from experience in other fields, even if it is theoretically easier to categorize when the tags are more precise, just by the sheer number of them, more errors will be made which then either creates more work to correct or leads to a lack of trust in the tagging system or both.


Uncertainty Remains with Orientation

So in the end it is the site’s operators that decide these definitions and this will be influenced by wider implicit norms, or like here for simplicity of use for the majority of the user base.

Note that even if we were to introduce orientation tags/tag groups/categories, there will still be uncertainty. For example: When defining an orientation as straight, do the following things belong in there?

  • solo-woman (still ok if she’s lesbian?)
  • solo-man (and a very straight guy at that so all the straight women have something to look at… or maybe it’s a trans-man at the beginning of transitioning?)
  • lesbian (apparently vastly different to gay) twosome, threesome, etc.
  • FFM (what if the women kiss… and the other lips as well)
  • MMF (what if they high-five while team-tagging her, what if they turn each other on verbally? Is even more okay, because it’s in a threeway? )
  • trans-male on trans-female (which gets even more complicated since these categories say nothing about the hardware)
  • intersex people

Yes, I’ve chosen these examples to be provocative and sometimes a bit silly, but my point is that there will be a lot of grey area if we don’t go very granular and also there’s individuality in how people define this stuff.


Defining Actions, Actors or User

When we talk about choosing sexual orientations, does that apply to the users, actors or actions? As I tried to show with the previous examples, straight might vary objectively depending on the sex of the user. And even among the same sex and gender, there is an individual component that will never be resolved (classical example among hetero-sexual cis-men when it comes to actions between cis-women).

Pragmatically the only thing that makes sense to me, is tagging the actions portrayed within a piece of media, not to whom it’s targeted (even if it is often done differently). That means that we aren’t tagging gay or straight as an identity, but as a description of occurring actions. We could quickly make this distinction by changing the tag-names to “gay-action” and “straight-action” (and “lesbian-action” for that matter and all others that pertain to it) as well as the respective solo tags. This does not add complexity to the tagging as is, while improving clarity and setting up the future onboarding with orientation tag groups.

There are other axes like gender, sex or hardware (to put it bluntly), etc. that could be resolved in a similar way, but that has to be done with great care to not disproportionately increase complexity.


Orientation as tag groups

If we have described the actions on a reasonably basic level, then the orientation becomes a combination of inclusionary and/or exclusionary tags and tag groups and can then be decoupled from the topic tags for further change and addition in the future. This means that the changes can be initiated quickly and be finished later if the changing behavior is acceptable. Also the distinction of straight man and straight woman is then not on the topic level, but group level, as well as bi-sexual and other groups that are deemed worthy to be assigned during on-boarding.

As an example: If I go to pornhub and choose an orientation out of gay, lesbian and trans, it is just a shortcut to showing the respective category i.e. tags and tag groups. Most probably while excluding tags belonging to the tag group of a different orientation. If I choose Straight, no categories/tags are selected. Note that there also isn’t a category for cis people and the exact sex or gender, neither of the creators nor of the viewer.

The exact definitions can be preset by whatever is decided by the admins and/or user base and can be corrected with the individual tag settings by the user. The difficulty will be to define things in a way that works well with how topics have been tagged in the past.

From where I stand, I believe this to be the least invasive and fastest way to change the structure and process while showing the most respect to everyone.

Since I don’t know the details, I will just point to a possible weakness: How to query the database for topics that aren’t up to par to a new mandatory tagging procedure (if necessary) yet.


As an aside: Only 2 or 3% of the population identify as gay or lesbian

Even if that were to be true (without going into the details of how many problems there are with surveying such a thing), the category Lesbian has been one of the top sought out terms and categories on pornhub for years. The popularity is not tied to the prevalence of a group in society.

To be honest, this isnt a bad idea at all, and exactly the point of tags. That this tag might be 80%+ of the content is completely irrelevant. The tag identifies the content at something that can be deemed critical enough. For gay people that realy dont care about women this is exactly the sort of tag they would blacklist, so has a good purpose on that.

The other tag alongside gay could be lesbian, which is equaly controversial, as for those who want to identify beyond male/female, it again sets a strict restriction. But gay/lesbian is still widely used and common enough to warrant a tag, and follows the 2 most used gender types.

But on the user side for this, i think its better to approach an requirement upon first login where you MUST select one or more categories you want to see. In which i can see 4 categories: Straight, gay, lesbian, trans. You can select 1, or just all. It doesnt realy matter much, except allowing a good default setting where you just blacklist whichever you didnt select.

The reason for the main 3 comes down to the binary split of: i want to see men, or i want to see women (or any of the ‘i dont want to see’).
Trans to me is the closest tag that indicates gender transformations (even if its just femboy or similar), and sounds a lot more specific than just ‘other’ (which to some people actualy would be more insulting). I dont know if there is any name that can describe trans/femboy or similar things as a separate category (There is no LHBT abreviation that only contains the BT+ part afaik)
This would be the hardest one to describe. But is again a tag that people could specificly look for, and is already very close to futa, which is still relatively popular as tag.

Good tags allow efficient filtering, both as in hiding unwanted content, or getting notifications of niche but wanted content.

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