Previous conversation started here. https://discuss.eroscripts.com/t/tiffany-tyler-james-deen-sextapes/66961/2
Current actions taken: in debate stage. To see full transcript please visit origianl post.
Here is my take on this.
i. This website is desgined for and drtiven by these kinds of conversations. It is important for users to chime in regarding concerns. @Maviarab Your original reply left much unsaid and assumes the knowledge of others. It is best to remain as informative as possible and always assume instead that someone did not know. Give them the benifit of the doubt first.
ii. in these situations in the past we have always done our best as Admin/Mods to make a welcoming community. A place where dicourse surrounding porn and subsequent scripts can occur. This is endangered anytime someone is deconstructive rather than consturctive with their critiscisms or concerns. Please remain courteous, infomative and concise when engaging in such discourse.
iii. To acheive this delicate balance we have taken such measures as to include and require use of tags that prevent people from accidentally accessing content they would prefer not to see. In this case we can start a list of unethical actors or studios and require that the names of the actors are in post titles.
iv. Porn is acting. Acting is an art form and a form of expression that can invoke emotional responses ranging from joy and pleasure to anger and rage. To determine if an actor or actress is acting or not, according to a script or improvised, is a judgment call rooted in intuition witout evidence or proof. This is very murky water. I think it safest for the site if we were to prevent content that had been judged by a court of law to be sexual assualt/rape from being posted here.
This will niether remove content or ban content that has not been ruled upon by a court of law as it is currently worded and we are open to discussion.
Please keep conversation informative(fact based or not based in accusation) and civil.
I would keep it exactly at that.
Because everything else would be almost impossible to monitor and would open the floodgates to hell.
Assault/rape are usually easy to see and should definitely be removed, alone on the basis that it´s illegal in many countries to upload this stuff (let alone moral problems), but everything else?
I can only talk about me personally but I know almost no Pornstarnames, including the guy this is about. For guys it´s exactly 2. This doesn´t include the guy this was about; don´t know his name, what he looks like etc. And what would make this even harder is that in many cases the male actors are not credited, at least on pornhub- and similar videos; not in the videos itself as far as I´m aware.
And even fewer people would know about courtcases, allegations or whatever is going on that isn´t big enough to make it to major media outlets which is pretty rare when it comes to porn.
Problems arise once this is taken into account. What about older stuff? What about people that unknowingly scripted a video including a specific actor and it´s deleted because of something he didn´t know? Pretty much the starting point for a lot of bad blood.
And then where do you start with this? Closed courtcases? Allegations? Someone heard something? Questionable creators or countries that might exploit people? People that “need” the money?
This is a slippery slope and the further down you go the harder it is to judge in some cases.
At the end of the day I think people need to decide what they want to watch and what they don´t want to see. People that know about this and don´t want to support it can do this by simply ignoring the videos. Most stuff shot should be consentual, there was a contract and it was work for all sides.
If someone feels the need to include an actors name to make people aware this should already be possible, but enforcing stuff like this would (as already said) open a huge can of worms. Because in this case not only the actors become relevant but also the director, studios, everyone that worked on it and when it comes to hentai/animated stuff this even stretches out to the artists, voice actors, everyone that worked on it and in cases the preexisting characters with all implications this might have, including the background of the original studio.
This gets really fun once we´re talking about pmv´s etc. Just watched one of the fastcut ones and just the thought of making a backgroundcheck on everyone involved…well, guess I´m busy for the rest of the week^^
This problem applies to anything out there. Movies, music, games, art and at the end of the day everyone needs to decide for themselfes if they want to consume the work of insert name here after this and that happened (don´t want to downplay rape, just want to say this to make sure this is clear).
At the end of the day I think almost all people here will not support rape, other crimes or the people comitting those, so it would be best to give people the benefit of the doubt that they see the video on its own or they just don´t know about it.
That´s just the thoughts on this from pretty much a lurker that wants to get into scripting but is too lazy to read into it; hope this was really meant as a discussion of sort and I don´t make an ass out of myself; if it´s the latter case I´m sorry in advance^^
I think that some sites should be blacklisted, just to increase awareness of scripters before they commit their time on something that can eventually get removed. There is only one site that comes to my mind and it’s GirlsDoPorn. They lost a lawsuit and the site doesn’t exist anymore, but someone can accidentaly script some remains that are around the internet.
My biggest problem is adding in actors names, sure the girls are almost always named in the post/video but the males tend not to be. The only teason he got named in the “trigger” topic is because the video came from his studio/label (james deen sextapes)
I’ve seen him in multiple other posts/videos that have been scripted with no clue to his name prior to this and to tell scripters they have to know who all the people are and tag “objectionable” people for things they may have done or been accused of is to high of a standard.
I said this in the previous thread but to keep it redundant and clear. I believe mosaic said it best with we will not remove content unless ruled illegal in the court of law as written.
I personally believe that unless it is illegal removal would be censorship which is against my morals.
I would not remove anything unless it specifically is causing real life pain to a specific person. Ie. Revenge porn/deep fake/abuse etc.
My thoughts are similar to @VladTheImplier
The only thing I would add is that I don’t think anyone here is qualified to make those types of ethical calls unless hashed out by the legal system.
For example. Pornhub which is owned and operated by Mindgeek was also sued multiple times for shady stuff. Like really heinous dark shit. However, they have been always able to settle out of court because they have the financial means or the case was weak/nonexistent. It could be either way but we do not really know. These close calls create a delima when creating a blacklist.
If we want to ban entire genres like we have for deepfake/revenge/child then good and fine but to ban specific actors/studios that has content that can be found easily creates a minefield scripters (at least me) wont want to deal with. So if you want to kill GirlsDoPorn then ban all “audition/interview” scenes.
Otherwise someone may well spend a month of their free time working on something only to get flagged over the source they couldnt verify and just stop posting. Get enough of those and our community dies.
IMO, any studio trading in material that is obviously illegal or over which they have lost lawsuits shouldn’t be given exposure of any kind here. That’s a criteria for the mods to decide upon and shouldn’t come down to poster subjectivity.
For specific performers, it’s more ambiguous. Someone accused of or even guilty of rape won’t have committed that in every scene and more likely off camera, so it becomes problematic to blanket ban everything. Personally, I can’t watch scenes involving the performer originally discussed, because I can’t detach the allegations from what I see, so it spoils everything he’s in. But that’s a personal perspective.
I’ve been away for a few weeks, and logging back in I’ve noticed many more “loli” type animated scenes than there used to be, and - again IMO - it’s a terrible look for eroscripts and ought to be separated from regular porn and confined to a category you’d have to access rather than being confronted with whenever you log in. The optics are just bad.
This has become an argument where people push an agenda based and their personal feelings towards a someone/something and try to censor it. Nope, not having it. Censors are for dictatorships. Laws are for democracies. I live in a democracy, I get to choose what i want to consume unless theres a law against it (loli/bestiality/etc for me) while still having the freedom to choose NOT to listen to you. Kinda like freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion. I am free to watch what i want while being free from your opinion.
Once again, if this aint the droids your looking for move along.
And as a reply to @throwawayacct How do you even get most of these videos if you don’t use tube sites? Im seriously asking, most of them are based on pornhub and spankbang! And theres no anger here friend, txting doesnt really show emotion i just have the mouth of a sailor and sometimes it slips. I just gave you suggestions and pointed how the difficulties with some of them. Also, I don’t speak spanish.
I’d like to point out I posted a BDSM “rape” scene (before and after interviews prove it was just acting) back in January of Bonnie Rotten where her co-star was also James Deen yet no one said a word about it so then, probably because I didn’t put his name on it but that just pushes me to want to avoid crediting the male talent so i dont have to deal with inconsistent issues like this.
Heres anothers work with him in it and hes even credited in the post.
@mblack profile>preferences>tags>muted>loli you can block out certain genres from showing on your feed if they don’t pertain to your preferences.
Ah, didn’t know that. Good tip, thanks.
I don’t think it’s too problematic to have a list of banned studios/actors, nor do I think it’s overly difficult to draw a line between “people who are involved in a shady industry” and “the people who make the industry shady.” Any filter will necessarily catch people it shouldn’t or miss people it should catch, but imperfection is not an excuse to avoid improvement. I think the important thing is to find the balance.
For instance, as has been brought up earlier, I think banning loli content probably falls into the category of people involved in a shady industry. Active pedophiles are completely abhorrent, but people who get involved in that content are often inactive pedophiles trying to remain inactive by finding an outlet which ultimately harms only sensibilities, and not children. The industry of producing content that appeals to pedophiles? Obviously way beyond sketchy given what most of that content is. But actually considering the practical impact of animated content and the people who make it is far more complicated.
James Deen, on the other hand, is someone for whom allegations are more than credible. Multiple former romantic partners and co-stars don’t just accuse you of being a rapist, and there is no question that rapists are harmful to their victims, and that the propagation of real rape content (as with real child pornography) and (unearned) rehabilitation of rapists can be deeply traumatic. Seeing, for instance, this rapist pastor embraced by his congregation in front of his victim makes me, someone who has never been the victim of sexual assault, deeply uncomfortable and distressed.
At the end of the day, we’re not exactly deciding freedom of speech for the known world here, so, y’know, kinda whatever. But victims of SA already face enough hurdles returning to a healthy sex life, and if any of them were to come here as part of that process (it actually seems like a decent step) I’d prefer to be as safe a space as possible.
(Cue “safe space” mockery)
One of the reason I love Eroscripts, this whole community is a safe space! How many people come here to talk and help each other out jacking off? Could you do that with your companies HR? Or your wife/husband/partner/friends? I agree there needs to be a safe space, and censoring stuff just because you disagree is how we lose our rights. I wont get into politics but look at our great friend America (no sarcasm I love our brothers), too many things cancelled because someone was offended (while some should be, louis ck, that monster weinstein etc) theres always attacks on free speech and thought from both sides of the spectrum, which shouldnt be confused with hate speech because thats entirely different and has no place in society.
This is one of the few online communities ive found to be almost entirely positive and helpful save AOEII but theyve always been respectful. I mean, look at the 2 creators in question. @rogueleader_92 and @g90ak have worked countless hours to deliver content for this community for free, and someone with a bug up theyre arse has to complain because they dont agree with the choice of scene to upscale/script? We are all people here just trying to bust a nut in peace. And to finish cause i am done with this discussion now and really want to get back to my handy and the scene/script that started this @Sinibus if anyone mocks/attempts to deny safe spaces for those who need them you send them my way and ill show em what the opposite is. They save lives.
I am begging you guys to let me jack off without thinking about the guys in porn.
If it’s not explicitly illegal nothing should change
I also throw away opinions from people who have not contributed to the site
Like 99% of others here, I too was unaware, and quite frankly don’t care, about drama related to actors. Those who do care can exercise their own discretion when reviewing material posted
Expecting an adult site full of adults sharing anything from vanilla to hardcore sex content to be a safe space for everyone is the wrong expectation. If anyone needs a safe space then thats fine, no one else should have any problem with that, but that is that person’s own responsibility.
Yelling at a scripter about something they’ve worked on for hours upon hours, probably not knowing what you know, is the wrong way to go about things. Inform them of what you know and move on, if they decide to do something with it its on them.
Everyone has their own fetishes, interests and their own lines in the sand. The community can’t be responsible for absolutely everyone and absolutely everything being clean and safe. Anything not strictly illegal(cp, revenge, deepfakes) is up for debate and not everyone is gonna have the same opinion.
Also as someone who recently got into scripting, this shit is hard and takes time. Even with a list, we can avoid studios but trying to avoid male actors might be difficult due to many videos just not listing them since they aren’t the main focus. Expecting scripters to research for the details on all participants, when identifying them might not be easy, is a steep barrier to entry.
I think the mods and community give it their best faith effort in keeping everything civil and making sure nothing strictly illegal is being dropped and that’s already great.
Do what you can do/want to but don’t blow up on people for not doing the same. They’re not you and you’re not them.
I’ve been aware of the accusations around Deen since Stoya first made them, and she’s only the first who voiced them publicly. Since then I’ve also consumed vids, scripted vids, & created PMVs that had him in them- not because I specifically seek him out as a male co-star in the videos, but because honestly- even knowing all of that, I generally wouldn’t be able to pick him out of a fucking lineup. And I say this as a dude that enjoys the D almost as much as the V. For the most part my eyes slide right past the dudes.
I don’t believe it was wrong of @Maviarab to call it out. When I initially saw the post come up under “new” I opted to scroll past it because I recognized the Deen name. I missed the entire thread until this one was created as ethics in pornography is something that I think about on the regular so it caught my eye. Going back and reading the thread I can see why it devolved so quickly- a lot of gasoline, not enough water. But @Maviarab started a conversation that will very likely continue to make people think- that’s never a bad thing.
And cheers to @thorolf for putting together a pretty solid list of things that are wrong with the industry. We all know that there’s a lot of fucked up activity that takes place in sex work at all levels- from the people working the corners, dancing in shitty clubs, or trafficking victims being coerced into making porn all the way up to luxury escorts and the legit stars of pornography. There are issues from top to bottom.
I don’t really think there’s a good answer here. Industry rumors are one thing and tbh, that’s all the Deen allegations are until he’s proven guilty in a court of law. Being completely frank, I believe the accusations. But since it’s not a court of law and I’m not on the jury, my personal opinion doesn’t mean a damned thing- which is another one of the reasons I won’t judge anyone who views/scripts any of his material. But the call-outs, as long as they’re handled respectfully, are informative.
A thought, though. Ultimately everything on this site is illegal somewhere. Ethically, I think this site is doing well. Yes, there’s definitely content that I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole and someone else’s dick… but I don’t think that relying on whether or not something is legal somewhere should be the ultimate measure. At the end of the day I trust the mods and admins on whether or not content should be allowed because they’ve earned that trust. If I ever get to the point where I no longer have it, I’ll take my ball(s) and go home. Often times exercising both civility and personal choice is the only way to proceed.
I’m only a lurker who cannot finish a script he starts but my suggestion would be to simply extend the current system so that everybody can add tags to any release, with the tags in their own list of muted tags on the top.
Maybe add a generic “unethical” tag or even the ability to create new tags.
The original poster can undo unfitting/wrong tags and block them from being reapplied.
If the system ever fails, a discussion like this comes up again.
This way everybody is free to create their own safespace around here should they choose to censor their Eroscripts experience.
This obviously would still ban whats banned now but should make all sides happy